Shin Judo: Su'cuy
Lithaladhwen: Hey.
Lithaladhwen: Not up long. Heading back to bed
soon.
Shin Judo: I know the feeling
Lithaladhwen: Someone just keeps calling our
house every few minutes and hanging up.
Shin Judo: Not me this time, I swear
Shin Judo: heh
Shin Judo: In situations like this, Caller ID is
your friend
Lithaladhwen: Heh.
Lithaladhwen: Back laterl.
Shin Judo: kay
Auto response from Lithaladhwen: "If you had killed
Watson, you would not have got out of this room
alive."
-Sherlock Holmes
Shin Judo: Rest well
Lithaladhwen: Wow. The Civil War thread has
gone retarded.
Auto response from Shin Judo: OMG
ELSEWHERE
Lithaladhwen: I was considering having Shakti
say something, but I missed the period of
greatest idiocy when she'd have done it.
Shin Judo: It precisly what happened to the old
Sith. "Evil feeds upon itself".
Shin Judo: The Rule of Two was created for a
-reason-
Lithaladhwen: Apparently Maize is going to
start placing bets on the outcomes of these
fights.
Shin Judo: There was some -really- telliong
things said there. I have some real respect for
some of phrases I saw
Shin Judo: telling*
Lithaladhwen: Agreed. Shakti doesn't actually
want the Sith to rule everything, not these Sith
anyway. Folk like Archon.
Lithaladhwen: She did want to know who the
idiots are.
Lithaladhwen: Now she knows.
Shin Judo: This shit here..
Shin Judo: "You are weak, you are pathetic, you
are a blight upon the true strength of the
Sith...which always lies in unification. Through
force, deceit, murder....but not through talk.
The very fact that the esteemed Lords chose to call
a general meeting to order instead of merely
weeding out the opposition they felt breeding lays
testimony to how weak and frail you have become."
Shin Judo: That is the most -Sith- thing I have
heard on this board since I got here. -That- is
the Sith mindset that many of the order lack. If
the wild ones had a clue, they would have
picked off the scholors in their way -long- ago.
And if the scholors had been -Sith-, this
meeting would have been a -trap-.
Shin Judo: I don't remeber who said it but
someone exclamed that "We are -Sith-, not
Dark Jedi" That was also very telling, to be
sure.
Shin Judo: I am very impressed with what I
have seen. They are really useing this event
well, so far.
Lithaladhwen: I could tell you Shakti's view, but
maybe Savin can get it out of her another time.
Lithaladhwen: Meanwhile Maize is amusing
himself by being a brat for the sake of being a
brat.
Shin Judo: He would at some point. If nothing
more because he is curious
Shin Judo: But, for now, He is plotting more
than any single Sith in that room
Lithaladhwen: Shakti doesn't have to plot. She
doesn't care about ruling the universe and she
feels relatively safe that no one else in that
room will be doing it either.
Lithaladhwen: She just wants to do whatever
she wants, and as long as no one is telling her
what she can and can't do, she's fine.
Lithaladhwen: It's a much more pure selfishness
than any of the other Sith.
Lithaladhwen: She doesn't care about glory for
their order.
Lithaladhwen: I will say that the warrior Sith
make everyone look bad in her mind.
Lithaladhwen: Problem with her discussing this
with Savin is that he's Savin, and he's going to
be using it to decide whether she's a "real" Sith
in his mind or not.
Shin Judo: And Savin will continue to work to
provide a galaxy in which she can remain
apathetic. Because, if the wild Siit win this,
there will not be a safe port in the galaxy for
her...save the Jetii. And we -know- how well
-that- fun day would turn out.
Lithaladhwen: Yeah.
Lithaladhwen: That's why she doesn't want
those Sith in charge. Sophie would leave her
be.
Lithaladhwen: Mandalorians can't really be
trusted either, though. Can't trust anybody
who wants a hegemony over the whole galaxy.
Lithaladhwen: Leaves a small group of trusted
allies for her, but that's fine by Shakti.
Shin Judo: Savin would not think her a Siit but
a Dha Jetii. And that would be just fine in his
eyes. Dha Jetii are actually -conversatable- as
long as everyone realizes that there is a
-good- chance -someone- in this convo is
being manipulated. True Siit, on the other
hand, can be dangerous to just -be- around.
And then you have these muraders that -call-
themselves Siit. -Those- are the ones that
they all need to deal with right now.
Lithaladhwen: If there's a split, Shakti will be
perfectly happy to eliminate the marauders
simply because they make her look bad, make
it harder for her to live her life openly.
Lithaladhwen: But unfortunately Savin doesn't
get to decide whether she's a Sith or a Dark
Jedi, any more than she gets to decide whether
he's a Mandalorian.
Lithaladhwen: It's kind of presumptuous that
Savin thinks he knows better than everyone
around him what categories everyone fits into.
Lithaladhwen: But then, that's Savin.
Lithaladhwen: He likes structure, he likes to
know wher epeople stand.
Lithaladhwen: If this means dividing them into
categories somewhat artificially, that's a
sacrifice he seems willing to make.
Shin Judo: But, he -does- get to decide how he
sees her. And he would never call her a Siit.
She -is- dark, to be sure. She can make the
dark appealing, certainly. But, covets not the
power above -all- else. -That- is the -real-
difference. And that is not nessasarily a bad
thing. If anything, it make her attachment to
the Waynes not only possible without tears
later, it makes it ideal. Ragnos is the one to
worry about, on the other hand.
Lithaladhwen: Depends on what kind of power
we're talking about.
Shin Judo: He has the makeings of a warlord.
And he breaths the lust for power. He will not
stop until he has crushed all opposition and all
that he deems a threat. That is the -main-
reason Savin is plotting his ass off. That guy
-will- come after the Mando'ade. It's only a
matter of -when-
Lithaladhwen: Personal power, yes. But power
for her faction? She could probably not care
less.
Lithaladhwen: I mean, what Savin does when he
categorizes people is tantamount to Korran
saying that real Muslims are violent
extremists.
Lithaladhwen: If you follow the Qu'ran, the Five
Pillars, and do all that stuff but you don't blow
yourself up to get rid of Israel and America?
Lithaladhwen: Sorry, but you're not a real
Muslim.
Shin Judo: Not for it...-over- it. Domination.
Control. Real power is in being able to, not
only call the hours of one's life. But, being
able to call the hours of -everyone's- lives.
Lithaladhwen: Real power to you.
Lithaladhwen: Power to Shakti means
something different.
Lithaladhwen: Power to her is the ability to
enforce whatever you want. Being unkillable
and above all unstoppable.
Lithaladhwen: Like I said.
Lithaladhwen: Savin is deciding who a "good"
Muslim is.
Shin Judo: Real power to the -Sith-. Take a look
at -everything- the -every- sith lord has done.
Exar-Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Reven, Malak,
Kreia, Palpatine, even Vader. All the sought
was a way to control their reality. -All- of them.
Lithaladhwen: Look what I said.
Lithaladhwen: I've said it twice now.
Shin Judo: And Savin is saying "If you don't
follow the tennats of the Korran, you are not a
Muslim." If that calls for you to blow yourself
up, congradulations on entering a violent
religion. If not, and you choose to do so, as
long as it's covered in your faith structure, just
don't blow -my- house up.
Lithaladhwen: Shakti follows the code, perhaps
better than most Sith.
Lithaladhwen: She just isn't like them.
Lithaladhwen: You're supposed to break your
chains, destroy your attachments.
Lithaladhwen: Yet most Sith are too caught up
in furthering the power of "The Sith" to really
do that.
Shin Judo: Yet she has formed them with the
Waynes
Lithaladhwen: She's not even attached to The
Sith as an idea.
Lithaladhwen: She has. And that probably won't
last.
Lithaladhwen: Just like her attachment to her
brother won't last.
Lithaladhwen: She's an outsider everywhere she
goes, even among "her own people." She's a
better Sith for it.
Lithaladhwen: That's why she had to find
another outsider to train her.
Lithaladhwen: You think Daritha could have
done it? Korran? Rach? Sophie?
Lithaladhwen: No. They've got allegiances and
places where they're accepted. The Waynes are
really accepted mainly by other Waynes.
Lithaladhwen: I just wanted to point out to you
that Savin's very very arrogant IC, that he
feels he has the knowledge and the right to
place everyone into categories better than they
can place themselves.
Lithaladhwen: It's not a bad trait for a character.
Part of what makes him interesting.
Lithaladhwen: It's just eventually going to annoy
the shit out of Shakti.
Shin Judo: Savin's whole point is, if you are not
following the faith, you are not -part- of the
faith. You are either completely true to it or
you are halfstepping. And, sometimes, that's a
-good- thing. He would feel he would be able
to deal with her -more- because of it.
Lithaladhwen: He can like her m ore because he
thinks she's not a Sith, but Savin tends to treat
his opinion as absolute truth. It's not "you
don't seem like a Sith to me," it's "you aren't a
Sith, even if other Sith feel that you are and
even if you self-identify as a Sith. I know
better than you."
Lithaladhwen: It's that "I know better than you
where you fit in" that'd annoy her.
Shin Judo: Oh man, Arumi didn't know the Civil
War started. XD
Lithaladhwen: *Snort*
Lithaladhwen: Because she wouldn't fit with the
Mandos either. They don't actually want her,
they want some idealized Mando-ized version
of her, and she doesn't need to be changed that
way by them.
Lithaladhwen: Accept her or don't.
Lithaladhwen: But either way, don't tell her
where she belongs if she feels she knows
otherwise.
Shin Judo: With Sav, he's about, don't wave the
flag is your not really a part of the team. He
wouldn't have a thing to say till she -called-
herself a Sith. That would bother him as much
as someone putting on a stolen suit of
Beskar'gam and saying they're a Mando. It's
different if one is attempting to learn more
about it and getting deeper into the culture,
but to just do one or two things and
completely ignore the rest is wasteful to him.
Again, his motto is "Do it, or don't. Anything
else is just wasteing time"
Lithaladhwen: There are a lot of ways to be
Christian, and they're all working with the
same book, the same information, and they all
call themselves Christian. Diversity kind of
throws a wrench into Savin's easy little
homogeneous categories.
Lithaladhwen: They need to have this argument.
It'd be amusing.
Shin Judo: Indeed
Lithaladhwen: Y'know a lot of Wiccans believe
you can't be a Wiccan without a coven?
Lithaladhwen: On the subject of people within a
faith excluding each other.
Lithaladhwen: If you don't have a priestesss, a
priest, and a certain number of other followers
around all performing the same function, none
of you are really following the religion.
Lithaladhwen: You can imagine this irritates
people who live in areas where covens aren't
possible.
Lithaladhwen: Or people who don't work well
within them.
Lithaladhwen: Problem is there isn't just
"Wiccan" any more than there's just
"Christian."
Lithaladhwen: There's Gardnerian Wicca, Dianic,
etc.
Shin Judo: Savin would counter with many
hardline Mando'ade believe there cannot -be-
a mandalore because the mask of Mandalore
the first is still lost. So, the fact that the clans
are reforming under Savin shouldn't be
happening until the mask is found and Savin
dons it. Traditionally, the mask of the
Mandalore is worn at -all- times. in fact, the
Mandalore whould never removed his
Baskar'gam in public.
Shin Judo: But that is not the case now. But
then, as they do now, they followed the
Resol'Nare to teh letter. That is the key. The
extras or the things that can be added or
changed do not modify the core beliefs. When
that happens, the faith becomes something
-else- As with Judaisum and Christianity.
When the core beliefs change...wo do the
belief.
Shin Judo: so*
Lithaladhwen: If Savin calls for people to go to
war, and some don't go because they don't
recognize him as the Mandalore, they're still
following the Resol'nare. That what you're
saying?
Lithaladhwen: So basically there is no diversity
within the Mandalorian culture. Gee, that
must be nice.
Lithaladhwen: The Sith have a code, too. By that
logic, as long as you follow it... no outsider has
room to say you're not a Sith.
Lithaladhwen: It's like telling someone who
follows the Resol'nare that he's not a Mando.
Lithaladhwen: Just because he doesn't fit your
idea of a Mandalorian.
Shin Judo: See, that the thing. If you -can't- go
or have another good reason why you cannot,
you don't -have- to serve in the trenches. That
is not to be taken litterally as not -every- mando is a solider. But, you are to
-support- the Mandalore in what ever way you can. If you can tend the sick, do that.
if you forge weapons, do that. If you grow crops, do that. You serve in what capasity
you can. In doing so, you are following the Nare to the letter.
Shin Judo: And if they do not recognize him as Mandoalore, that is an, altogether,
different set of issus that would call Savin into question.
Lithaladhwen: Yeah, but you're not addressing the important thing that I said.
Lithaladhwen: Lithaladhwen: The Sith have a code, too. By that logic, as long as you
follow it... no outsider has room to say you're not a Sith.
Lithaladhwen: It's like telling someone who follows the Resol'nare that he's not a
Mando.
Lithaladhwen: Just because he doesn't fit your idea of a Mandalorian.
Lithaladhwen: There are different ways to be a Mandalorian. Savin knows this
because he knows the Mandalorians.
Lithaladhwen: He doesn't seem like he'll ever accept that there are different (and valid)
ways of being a Sith.
Lithaladhwen: Easier just to think of them as a monolithic group of vicious
backstabbing sadomasochists.
Shin Judo: He dosn't think that is being much of a Sith, either. to be perfectly honest,
Ragnos was the closet thing to a sith in that room to him. Because he did the most
sith thing he had seen in there. He took the oppertunity to make a garb for power
the -moment- it presented itself. That, and he is going after teh ones that would be
the -easiest- to control.
Lithaladhwen: I don't care how Savin decides what a Sith is. The fact that he thinks he
knows better than Sith themselves... well, it's not for him to decide. You're still not
addressing my point.
Lithaladhwen: You've dodged it twice now.
Lithaladhwen: Lithaladhwen: Lithaladhwen: The Sith have a code, too. By that logic, as
long as you follow it... no outsider has room to say you're not a Sith.
Lithaladhwen: It's like telling someone who follows the Resol'nare that he's not a
Mando.
Lithaladhwen: Just because he doesn't fit your idea of a Mandalorian.
Shin Judo: Ok. If he's not following the Nare, he is not a Mando. Period dot. do you
wear your armor. Yup, check. Do you support your clan? Yessir. Check. Do you
speak Mando'a? Well...not really. <---in this senario is where he maks the
distinction.
Shin Judo: Are you learning? No, I don't want to. I dun need it. ~Ok. Are you
Mando'ade? Yes. ~Inncorrect.
Shin Judo: On the other hand----Are you learning? Ya, I'm getting on it when I can.
~Are you Mando'ade? Yes. ~Hmmh. Let me give you some help on your Mando'a,
vod.
Shin Judo: It's about the -effort- one puts into it. That is his bag. "Apathy never made
anybody -anything-, Burc'ya."
Lithaladhwen: You're missing my point.
Lithaladhwen: I know all that about the definition of a Mandalorian.
Lithaladhwen: The rules of being Mandalorian have nothing to do with your beliefs,
just your actions.
Lithaladhwen: The rules of being a Sith (the Sith Code) are about belief.
Lithaladhwen: Check it if you need to, but that's the case.
Lithaladhwen: What I'm saying is....
Lithaladhwen: If you can be whatever sort of Mandalorian you please as long as you're
following the Resol'nare, it's totally inconsistent to deny that same leeway to the
Sith.
Lithaladhwen: As long as you do the Resol'nare, you're a Mando. As long as you
believe the Code, you're a Sith.
Lithaladhwen: By your logic, at least.
Lithaladhwen: The problem is that argument is being inconsistently applied.
Mandalorians get that leeway, but Sith have to both believe and do a certain set of
things which is not only not required by the Sith Code, but it's also not something
required of Mandalorians.
Lithaladhwen: That's what I'm saying.
Lithaladhwen: As long as you're fulfilling the requirements set out by the culture to
which you belong (according to you and according to them), it's not for any outsider
to decide whether you "count."
Shin Judo: I do not see where you think MAndo's are getting any leeway
Lithaladhwen: If you follow the Resol'nare, you're a Mandalorian. Or, if you're trying
to follow it. That's it.
Lithaladhwen: However, if you follow the Sith Code, you also have to be a certain kind
of Sith in Savin's mind.
Lithaladhwen: That's not his call to make.
Lithaladhwen: It'd be like Shakti saying certain Mandalorians aren't Mandalorians
even though they follow the code just because they aren't how she sees Mandos.
Lithaladhwen: See what I mean?
Shin Judo: You missed what I said.
Lithaladhwen: No, I didn't. But what you said doesn't directly address the point I was
trying to make firsts.
Lithaladhwen: *first
Lithaladhwen: So I'm reiterating the point I was trying to make.
Lithaladhwen: If you're fulfilling the requirements set by your culture (either Sith or
Mandalorian) it's not for an outsider to decide beyond that who "counts."
Lithaladhwen: Savin wouldn't accept someone doing that to Mandalorians, but it
seems like he's willing to do that himself toward the Sith.
Lithaladhwen: It's hypocritical.
Shin Judo: Shin Judo (2:31:21 PM): And Savin is saying "If you don't follow the tennats of
the Korran, you are not a Muslim." If that calls for you to blow yourself up,
congradulations on entering a violent religion. If not, and you choose to do so, as
long as it's covered in your faith structure, just don't blow -my- house up.
Shin Judo: Shin Judo (3:14:45 PM): It's about the -effort- one puts into it. That is his bag.
"Apathy never made anybody -anything-, Burc'ya."
Lithaladhwen: Yeah. And what does that have to do with what I'm saying?
Lithaladhwen: You're going after the examples t hemselves and not actually
addressing the reason I'm using them, the point I'm making.
Lithaladhwen: Savin has no right to decide who's a Sith if the TSC and the individual
Sith disagree, just as Shakti doesn't get to decide who's a Mando if their culture and
the individual Mando disagree with her.
Lithaladhwen: It's a matter of who's got room to judge these things.
Shin Judo: It's all about the -effort-. If you want to eat babies or have them, knock
yourself out. But, be true to the tennants of the faith you profess. If that faith says
you can't eat babies and you -do-, guess what you are not following. If that faith
says you are to seek power at the expence of those around you and you don't,
there you go. If that faith says you are to help the sick and the weak of the
galaxy and you do, grats. If that faith says you are -only- to defend and you
muster an army to attack an enemy for a slight on your honor, guess who's
rules your breaking?
Shin Judo: If anything, Savin would be more dissappointed that they would
be -ok- with breaking their -own- rules. If that is what they want to do,
more power. But, he will not be the one to aknowledge it. "I'm a sith."
"Ok, burc'ya. Whatever you say. Are we going to do this deal or what?"
Lithaladhwen: I get that he takes note when people claim to follow a
certain code or culture and then don't follow through in their lives. I
get that to Savin this means you don't really "count," and that's
not an invalid way of looking at it. That's not hypocritical.
What is hypocritical is passing judgment on people who
-are- following the tenets of their culture or religion. What's
hypocritical is looking at a Sith who follows the Sith Code
(but not in the way you expect or generally see) and
deciding they're not a Sith. At that point you've gone
beyond expecting them to follow their own rules. You've
moved into a position where you get to decide how
members other cultures must -apply- their rules in order to
be valid members, and that's not for an outsider to decide.
Shin Judo: That the thing...a good portion of the Sith in that
room -agree- with him on that point. In that way, it's more of
an observation
Lithaladhwen: But they're Sith. Those are their rules, and if
they want to decide what "orthodoxy" means for the Sith,
that's their place.
Lithaladhwen: Not Savin's.
Shin Judo: Even if he agrees?
Lithaladhwen: If he agrees because they believe it, that's fine.
But I don't think that's the case. It's a little different. I think
he'd feel that way even if they didn't agree.
Shin Judo: See, that's funny. As much as he sees what they
are saying, he -still- wants them to lose.
Lithaladhwen: If they didn't agree with him... well, then
they'd be wrong, too.
Shin Judo: He only sees what he sees.
Shin Judo: If they didn't think so, the tennats of the order
would be different
Shin Judo: And he would have a different view on the matter
Lithaladhwen: As far as Shakti is concerned, if she identifies as
a Sith and TSC identifies her as a Sith, and both of these
entities agree that she's a Sith because she's following their
code, no one outside that has any right to decide whether
she's a Sith or not. They can believe it for themselves, but
their opinion holds little to no relevance at all.
Shin Judo: And Savin would simply point out "And when half
your order agrees with me? Is it an opinion? A judgment
passed by an outsider? Or an -observation-?"
Shin Judo: Uh oh...Arumi has entered the thread.
Lithaladhwen: Half of her order has the right to make that
call, because they have the right to dictate orthodoxy. But
it's not his opinion that counts; it's theirs. The fact that he
shares it is incidental and largely meaningless.
Shin Judo: He's simply laugh that off and ask her if she wants
another ale. Then he'd asker her if she was old enough to
drink for the third time
Lithaladhwen: Heh. She'd take a lager. Ale's too bitter, and
she's bitter enough without adding bitter drinks. >:P
Shin Judo: Hah
Shin Judo: Savin: Lager is for sissies
Lithaladhwen: Shakti: It's for people with taste.
Shin Judo: Savin: -Poor- taste. I mean, just look at what
you're wearing. So, pre-clone wars..*Sips his beer in his
tank top and fatiuge-style pants and polished millitary-style
boots*
Lithaladhwen: At this point Shakti would probably laugh
until she couldn't breathe.
Lithaladhwen: This is not an unusual reaction for her.
Shin Judo: Haha
Lithaladhwen: It's how she interacts with her world. Peiori
and I were comparing our characters in this respect.
Shin Judo: Like a good drinking buddy, Savin would take her
drink so she didn't spill it while she rolled on the floor
Lithaladhwen: *thumbs up* Good man.
Shin Judo: What? She laughs it it and he eats it?
Lithaladhwen: They both have the completely
inappropriately-timed hysterical laughter thing going on.
Lithaladhwen: Both of them feel free to find amusement in
even the most horrible situations.
Shin Judo: Shakti: HAHAHHAHAHAHA XDDD
Peio: Ummnummnummnumm
Savin: What the frell are you -DOING-!?
Peio: *Whips mouth* What?? It was funny..<_<
Lithaladhwen: Jedi: *starts monologuing*
Shakti: *snickers*
Peiori: *chuckles*
Shakti: *laughs harder*
Peiori: *cackles*
And from there the laughter just gets self-magnifying and
contagious.
Shin Judo: Haha
Shin Judo: Hey, are you callable in the next 45 or so
minutes?
Lithaladhwen: I'd rather not. Sore throat, and I need to save
my voice for work tomorrow.
Shin Judo: kay
Shin Judo: Heh heh..Savin's -true- motives have been made
clear in the Fragments thread
Lithaladhwen: Alema just realized she's the den mother of the
CFR.
Shin Judo: What? -Just- now?
Lithaladhwen: Yes.
Lithaladhwen: The Breakfast thread.